Singapore Expats

Mad Scientist wrote:

OneGoodSon wrote: The Singapore government might be smart, but Singaporeans are not stupid. Many of my friends who are still there are feeling frustrated with the recent turn of events in the city state. Of course they have to keep quiet otherwise they'll get into trouble, as some of them work in the government also.

You said it in your own words. They are upset but scared which means they've got no balls to make a change. These phenomenon equates to memememe syndrome. Those who dares to challenge is either exiled, left or incarcerated.
Changes does not come from the gahmen but the people and changes must comes from oneself. If you are back against the walls, you either die or come out fighting..
The recent political landscape which the end result of the last election has been brewing for many years. Scared to lose or kiasuim in its own mentality is the one that kills this very own changes
I, like many have served the NS, the ministries and having worked with the gahmen, one will realise it is either their way or the highway.
I chose the latter hence I have come to grips that it will take more than the people's will to change the political landscape.
Like I said you will not be the first nor the last one that has spoken about it or gone thru this. I have seen far more heartbreaking stories with no solution in sight.
We will try our best to point you to the right direction or gives above the board solution and you can take it from there. There is no point it taking issues that you have no control over it.

There is a solution - NS defaulter returns - gets sentenced and screams blue murder on the internet * 1000 and you'll see 'something' happen.

offshoreoildude wrote:

Mad Scientist wrote:

OneGoodSon wrote: The Singapore government might be smart, but Singaporeans are not stupid. Many of my friends who are still there are feeling frustrated with the recent turn of events in the city state. Of course they have to keep quiet otherwise they'll get into trouble, as some of them work in the government also.

You said it in your own words. They are upset but scared which means they've got no balls to make a change. These phenomenon equates to memememe syndrome. Those who dares to challenge is either exiled, left or incarcerated.
Changes does not come from the gahmen but the people and changes must comes from oneself. If you are back against the walls, you either die or come out fighting..
The recent political landscape which the end result of the last election has been brewing for many years. Scared to lose or kiasuim in its own mentality is the one that kills this very own changes
I, like many have served the NS, the ministries and having worked with the gahmen, one will realise it is either their way or the highway.
I chose the latter hence I have come to grips that it will take more than the people's will to change the political landscape.
Like I said you will not be the first nor the last one that has spoken about it or gone thru this. I have seen far more heartbreaking stories with no solution in sight.
We will try our best to point you to the right direction or gives above the board solution and you can take it from there. There is no point it taking issues that you have no control over it.

There is a solution - NS defaulter returns - gets sentenced and screams blue murder on the internet * 1000 and you'll see 'something' happen.

Most people in my situation would not take the chance to return to an uncertain outcome, especially for a 45 year old with work and family obligations. What we really want is to resolve this situation in a logical and risk-free manner, like a fine and some community service, or some 3-month clerical duty. I won't bet on the Internet X 1000 hope, as Singaporeans are passive submissive, like MS pointed out.

OneGoodSon wrote:

offshoreoildude wrote:

Mad Scientist wrote: You said it in your own words. They are upset but scared which means they've got no balls to make a change. These phenomenon equates to memememe syndrome. Those who dares to challenge is either exiled, left or incarcerated.
Changes does not come from the gahmen but the people and changes must comes from oneself. If you are back against the walls, you either die or come out fighting..
The recent political landscape which the end result of the last election has been brewing for many years. Scared to lose or kiasuim in its own mentality is the one that kills this very own changes
I, like many have served the NS, the ministries and having worked with the gahmen, one will realise it is either their way or the highway.
I chose the latter hence I have come to grips that it will take more than the people's will to change the political landscape.
Like I said you will not be the first nor the last one that has spoken about it or gone thru this. I have seen far more heartbreaking stories with no solution in sight.
We will try our best to point you to the right direction or gives above the board solution and you can take it from there. There is no point it taking issues that you have no control over it.

There is a solution - NS defaulter returns - gets sentenced and screams blue murder on the internet * 1000 and you'll see 'something' happen.

Most people in my situation would not take the chance to return to an uncertain outcome, especially for a 45 year old with work and family obligations. What we really want is to resolve this situation in a logical and risk-free manner, like a fine and some community service, or some 3-month clerical duty. I won't bet on the Internet X 1000 hope, as Singaporeans are passive submissive, like MS pointed out.

I'm not suggesting YOU be one of the ones... but there are enough NS defaulters around (particularly in MY) who have none of these obligations. I know at least one NS defaulter who came back in the early 90's .... 30 days in lockup and then straight to boot camp.

I would not bet on a change of govt fixing this either - none of the opposition parties have mentioned NS changes in their policies to my knowledge. You probably know why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Natio ... vice_Riots

Hi All,
I just wanted to refresh this string as my own situation is similar to OneGoodSon's and wanted to ask for your opinions on how to handle it.
I'm now 47yo and left SG 26 years ago. I completed 2yrs + of NS (in combat engineers - yeah, siong, and stop laughing ...) and deferred with exit permit to go abroad for studies. To cut a long story short, I now have an AUS passport and my SG one is well and truly expired. I tried to renounce my SG citizenship years ago but got a reply that this was not possible because of my outstanding NSF liability. Can I resolve this remotely via a lawyer ? I can't afford to chance my luck at SG immigration and get hauled away to jail.
Appreciate your insights.
regards,
SJB8

sjb8aus wrote:Hi All,
I just wanted to refresh this string as my own situation is similar to OneGoodSon's and wanted to ask for your opinions on how to handle it.
I'm now 47yo and left SG 26 years ago. I completed 2yrs + of NS (in combat engineers - yeah, siong, and stop laughing ...) and deferred with exit permit to go abroad for studies. To cut a long story short, I now have an AUS passport and my SG one is well and truly expired. I tried to renounce my SG citizenship years ago but got a reply that this was not possible because of my outstanding NSF liability. Can I resolve this remotely via a lawyer ? I can't afford to chance my luck at SG immigration and get hauled away to jail.
Appreciate your insights.
regards,
SJB8

There is no use one bit to use a lawyer, in fact , it will make matter worse. You are throwing money down the drain.
I am guessing you did not apply or extend your Exit Permit hence you still have NSF liability. If you are 47 years old and have done proper documentation and Exit Permit upon reaching 40 years old, be it you have finished your 13 years cycle for NCOs and below or 50 years old for Officers, you will be discharge from Mindef on the day you turn 40 or 50 respectively with a word of thanks. Only with this can you renounce your SG citizenship
Contact CMPB and discuss option, Chances are pay, the fine and get the release letter for you to be discharge from the army.
You will not go for combat reservist as your age is not suitable for this anymore. In the worse scenario, 2 weeks for every high key year that you missed. The chief clerk can arrange this and basically you can nego.
I cannot recall anyone above 45 need to go to combat vocation

Hi Mad Scientist,
First of all, a word of appreciation for your time and input to this forum, your posts are well written, informative and your insights very helpful.
I wanted to add a bit more detail on my specific case and would appreciate if you think it makes any difference.
You see, I did actually renew my Exit Permit once when I was in my early twenties basically to continue my overseas studies. Do you think this has any bearing?
Since lawyers are a no-no, what do you think is the correct / courteous / protocol method of opening this kind of discussions with the CMPB ? Do you think it is better via an e-mail, phone call or letter and how do I properly channel my communication so it gets to the chief clark who can adjudicate with authority on this ? Do you think I can clear all this up remotely or will I have to attend CMPB in person at some stage and run the SG immigration gauntlet ? Do you see any additional complications since I have effectively been a dual citizen against SG regulations for many years ?
kind regards,
sjb8aus

sjb8aus wrote: You see, I did actually renew my Exit Permit once when I was in my early twenties basically to continue my overseas studies. Do you think this has any bearing?
sjb8aus

I think this is what has come back to haunt you. I went through the same process and didn't have any problems as I had constantly renewed my Exit Permit. I was able to renounce with MS pointing me to the right people.

sjb8aus wrote:Hi Mad Scientist,
First of all, a word of appreciation for your time and input to this forum, your posts are well written, informative and your insights very helpful.
I wanted to add a bit more detail on my specific case and would appreciate if you think it makes any difference.
You see, I did actually renew my Exit Permit once when I was in my early twenties basically to continue my overseas studies. Do you think this has any bearing?
Since lawyers are a no-no, what do you think is the correct / courteous / protocol method of opening this kind of discussions with the CMPB ? Do you think it is better via an e-mail, phone call or letter and how do I properly channel my communication so it gets to the chief clark who can adjudicate with authority on this ? Do you think I can clear all this up remotely or will I have to attend CMPB in person at some stage and run the SG immigration gauntlet ? Do you see any additional complications since I have effectively been a dual citizen against SG regulations for many years ?
kind regards,
sjb8aus

There are two components in this situation. Before I can even point you or give you my POV, please answer these questions and please no BS or else I am out of here

1. Did you have applied or renewed your EP till 40 years old ?
2. Did you serve any in camp after NS?
3. What did you state on your EP application or renewal and after your finish your Uni?
4. Have you been out of Singapore all these while ?
5. Have you lived or return to Singapore for more than 33 days in a stretch?
6. Have CMPB or Mindef contacted you at your overseas address regarding your liabilities?
7. Did you received a discharge letter once you turn 40?
8. You said you are in combat engineer Bn , 40 SAE ?
9. What rank did you hold then?
10. Have you been transferred into a holding strength at Div. or CPC?
11. Are you married now and your immediate family in OZ? Any kids ?
12. Kids dual citizen?
13. Wife Sger ?

Mad Scientist,
Here's my answers to your questions. Hope you can share your POV.
kind regards,
sjb8aus

1. Did you have applied or renewed your EP till 40 years old ? I applied for EP and renewed once. Renewed EP from 19-Mar-91 until 31-Dec-92
2. Did you serve any in camp after NS? No. NSF not completed. Completed just over 2 yrs then disrupted.
3. What did you state on your EP application or renewal and after your finish your Uni? EP & renewal application was for pursuing studies. Did not make further EP renewal applications after that. Tried to renounce SG citizenship but application witheld by Registrar of Citizens.
4. Have you been out of Singapore all these while ? Yes. Except for 2 short visits whilst my EP was still valid. Last visit to SG was Jul 1990.
5. Have you lived or return to Singapore for more than 33 days in a stretch? No. Longest stretch was 32 days - 28-jun-89 until 30-jul-89.
6. Have CMPB or Mindef contacted you at your overseas address regarding your liabilities? Yes, at previous SG address.
7. Did you received a discharge letter once you turn 40? No. But my contact details with CMPB had been way out of date by then.
8. You said you are in combat engineer Bn , 40 SAE ? 30SCE
9. What rank did you hold then? CPL
10. Have you been transferred into a holding strength at Div. or CPC? In Jul 92 I received a Notice Of Emplacement to 3SG NUSAF NB5. I don't know if this answers your question but it seems this was a kind of promotion as it also advise of my new salary scale.
11. Are you married now and your immediate family in OZ? Any kids ? Yes married, all in OZ, 1 kid
12. Kids dual citizen? No. OZ
13. Wife Sger ? No. OZ

sjb8aus wrote:Mad Scientist,
Here's my answers to your questions. Hope you can share your POV.
kind regards,
sjb8aus

1. Did you have applied or renewed your EP till 40 years old ? I applied for EP and renewed once. Renewed EP from 19-Mar-91 until 31-Dec-92
2. Did you serve any in camp after NS? No. NSF not completed. Completed just over 2 yrs then disrupted.
3. What did you state on your EP application or renewal and after your finish your Uni? EP & renewal application was for pursuing studies. Did not make further EP renewal applications after that. Tried to renounce SG citizenship but application witheld by Registrar of Citizens.
4. Have you been out of Singapore all these while ? Yes. Except for 2 short visits whilst my EP was still valid. Last visit to SG was Jul 1990.
5. Have you lived or return to Singapore for more than 33 days in a stretch? No. Longest stretch was 32 days - 28-jun-89 until 30-jul-89.
6. Have CMPB or Mindef contacted you at your overseas address regarding your liabilities? Yes, at previous SG address.
7. Did you received a discharge letter once you turn 40? No. But my contact details with CMPB had been way out of date by then.
8. You said you are in combat engineer Bn , 40 SAE ? 30SCE
9. What rank did you hold then? CPL
10. Have you been transferred into a holding strength at Div. or CPC? In Jul 92 I received a Notice Of Emplacement to 3SG NUSAF NB5. I don't know if this answers your question but it seems this was a kind of promotion as it also advise of my new salary scale.
11. Are you married now and your immediate family in OZ? Any kids ? Yes married, all in OZ, 1 kid
12. Kids dual citizen? No. OZ
13. Wife Sger ? No. OZ

Mate , your issue is more complicated than an overdue EP.

You had a disruption from NS hence you only serve 2 years. You need to complete the balance 6 months as it was 2 and half years for CPL and above back then.
You took them for a ride and thought you can get away with it. Bad move !!
Either you deliberately or otherwise, apply for EP under overseas tertiary till you complete your Uni and did not return to serve the balance of your NS.. Had you done that, your EP to stay overseas for employment will not be an issue. Though you do need to serve 3 in-camp before you can renounce.
You tried to re-extend your EP but not approve hence you went underground.You did this to yourself is all I can say, proof me wrong please.

MS,
I can't prove you wrong and I am aware the situation is of my tilling. During my final semester of Uni, I got offered a job with the company I was interning with. My choice at the time was to focus on my careeer / financial commitments rather than complete NSF and potentially miss the job offer. I'm not justifying anything, only relating how things panned out at that time. I'm just here to seek advice on a way this mess can get sorted out. If it turns out that the resolution probably involves incarceration and / or a massive fine then I have to take that into consideration.

Mad Scientist wrote:

sjb8aus wrote:Mad Scientist,
Here's my answers to your questions. Hope you can share your POV.
kind regards,
sjb8aus

1. Did you have applied or renewed your EP till 40 years old ? I applied for EP and renewed once. Renewed EP from 19-Mar-91 until 31-Dec-92
2. Did you serve any in camp after NS? No. NSF not completed. Completed just over 2 yrs then disrupted.
3. What did you state on your EP application or renewal and after your finish your Uni? EP & renewal application was for pursuing studies. Did not make further EP renewal applications after that. Tried to renounce SG citizenship but application witheld by Registrar of Citizens.
4. Have you been out of Singapore all these while ? Yes. Except for 2 short visits whilst my EP was still valid. Last visit to SG was Jul 1990.
5. Have you lived or return to Singapore for more than 33 days in a stretch? No. Longest stretch was 32 days - 28-jun-89 until 30-jul-89.
6. Have CMPB or Mindef contacted you at your overseas address regarding your liabilities? Yes, at previous SG address.
7. Did you received a discharge letter once you turn 40? No. But my contact details with CMPB had been way out of date by then.
8. You said you are in combat engineer Bn , 40 SAE ? 30SCE
9. What rank did you hold then? CPL
10. Have you been transferred into a holding strength at Div. or CPC? In Jul 92 I received a Notice Of Emplacement to 3SG NUSAF NB5. I don't know if this answers your question but it seems this was a kind of promotion as it also advise of my new salary scale.
11. Are you married now and your immediate family in OZ? Any kids ? Yes married, all in OZ, 1 kid
12. Kids dual citizen? No. OZ
13. Wife Sger ? No. OZ

Mate , your issue is more complicated than an overdue EP.

You had a disruption from NS hence you only serve 2 years. You need to complete the balance 6 months as it was 2 and half years for CPL and above back then.
You took them for a ride and thought you can get away with it. Bad move !!
Either you deliberately or otherwise, apply for EP under overseas tertiary till you complete your Uni and did not return to serve the balance of your NS.. Had you done that, your EP to stay overseas for employment will not be an issue. Though you do need to serve 3 in-camp before you can renounce.
You tried to re-extend your EP but not approve hence you went underground.You did this to yourself is all I can say, proof me wrong please.

sjb8aus wrote:MS,
I can't prove you wrong and I am aware the situation is of my tilling. During my final semester of Uni, I got offered a job with the company I was interning with. My choice at the time was to focus on my careeer / financial commitments rather than complete NSF and potentially miss the job offer. I'm not justifying anything, only relating how things panned out at that time. I'm just here to seek advice on a way this mess can get sorted out. If it turns out that the resolution probably involves incarceration and / or a massive fine then I have to take that into consideration.

Back in the early 70s till mid 80s , Mindef allows disruption. Many parents who has the dough managed to get this "out of jail" escape route. Many returns from overseas after completing their studies but many like yourself did a runner too.
Hence Mindef stop this disruption unless you are Gahmen sponsor, President Scholar, Medical Course or sign on Officer or NCos that are going to local Unis or polys. Only MO are allowed to negotiate a longer disruption due to its 7 years tertiary education span.
In fact those that return did managed to land comfortable jobs after they have completed their NS liabilities.
The issue right here is you are over 40 hence technically you are not allowed to go for combat nor any military vocation . Added to this you are only an NCO which is a small fly.
However when you did a runner, you have landed yourself in a hot soup. Since they are not able to get hold of you moreover you did not provide ICA and CMPB your overseas address which in fact you are already committing an offence by not providing forwarding address or change of residential address be it locally or overseas, your name was sent to ICA albeit CAB.
It was a ticking bomb since you did not return nor inform them of your where about, it is now biting you in the bum.
Now, from memory , if you are below 40 you are able to complete your NSF liabilities on top of the fine that you need to pay. I think it is about $5K.
For your case jail term is a possibility plus fine as you did not complete your NS term which is a serious offence
Chief Clerk is not able to help you on this.
First port of call contact CMPB , I think Susan (Supervisor of EP section) will direct or advise you the next course of action.
I do not think you can do this remotely. If you do not get this noose out of your neck , you can never step back to Singapore.
There is no assurance on what course of action they will take as you have to face the court if Mindef decided to press charges which is a possibility
Alternatively forget about all this drama and never return . Ever
This issue will never go away . Either you confront it or sweep it under the carpet is your call.
I am really peeved on your kind of people which technically are ungrateful kraut for the disruption that was given and not returning it in kindness by just completing the NSF term . Even that is not good enough and you really push it to the wire. How hard can that be ?
I served in the 70s under the Israelis and got my wings and echelon and still complete my studies. The mememe syndrome already kick start when you were young.

You have an Ozzie passport, your wife and kids are with you in Ozzie. Forgive me, but is it even necessary for you to bother with any of this?

If it's parents, have them come to Australia instead. Forget about SG. You have a better life in a better country.

iamsen wrote:You have an Ozzie passport, your wife and kids are with you in Ozzie. Forgive me, but is it even necessary for you to bother with any of this?

If it's parents, have them come to Australia instead. Forget about SG. You have a better life in a better country.

That is true but you forgot the other part that most trans Asia flights will have stop over in Singapore. Now what if he needs to travel to the UK, I wonder.... he needs to ensure his stopover is not in Singapore.
Lastly sentimental ties can prove to be stronger than rational thinking

I only can say is, at that point of time, you have chosen a path that you have known to cause issues, and have contravened statute laws of Singapore, in pursuit of the bigger picture.

sjb8aus wrote: 1. Did you have applied or renewed your EP till 40 years old ? I applied for EP and renewed once. Renewed EP from 19-Mar-91 until 31-Dec-92
2. Did you serve any in camp after NS? No. NSF not completed. Completed just over 2 yrs then disrupted.
3. What did you state on your EP application or renewal and after your finish your Uni? EP & renewal application was for pursuing studies. Did not make further EP renewal applications after that. Tried to renounce SG citizenship but application witheld by Registrar of Citizens.
4. Have you been out of Singapore all these while ? Yes. Except for 2 short visits whilst my EP was still valid. Last visit to SG was Jul 1990.
5. Have you lived or return to Singapore for more than 33 days in a stretch? No. Longest stretch was 32 days - 28-jun-89 until 30-jul-89.
6. Have CMPB or Mindef contacted you at your overseas address regarding your liabilities? Yes, at previous SG address.
7. Did you received a discharge letter once you turn 40? No. But my contact details with CMPB had been way out of date by then.
8. You said you are in combat engineer Bn , 40 SAE ? 30SCE
9. What rank did you hold then? CPL
10. Have you been transferred into a holding strength at Div. or CPC? In Jul 92 I received a Notice Of Emplacement to 3SG NUSAF NB5. I don't know if this answers your question but it seems this was a kind of promotion as it also advise of my new salary scale.
11. Are you married now and your immediate family in OZ? Any kids ? Yes married, all in OZ, 1 kid
12. Kids dual citizen? No. OZ
13. Wife Sger ? No. OZ