Page 1 of 23
Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:36 am
by Wd40
Rents are going up like crazy. Some of my colleague's recent rental renewals are at 4k for simple 1bedroom
condo and 3 bedroom HDB! If you have like 2 kids in intl school and pay like 2k each and 4k rent, how can anybody survive here with a salary of 10k?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... r-pressure
In my 13 years here, this is the 1st time, I am wondering if it even makes sense to continue staying here.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 9:52 am
by malcontent
Wd40 wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:36 am
Rents are going up like crazy. Some of my colleague's recent rental renewals are at 4k for simple 1bedroom
condo and 3 bedroom HDB! If you have like 2 kids in intl school and pay like 2k each and 4k rent, how can anybody survive here with a salary of 10k?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... r-pressure
In my 13 years here, this is the 1st time, I am wondering if it even makes sense to continue staying here.
It reminds me of a story I read many years ago about Yahoo mail. Yahoo wasn’t making money from mail and one commentator said the company simply could not shed users of its popular mail service - it was wondering what it had to do to reduce numbers… even if it kicked people in the nuts, they would not leave!
Sometimes I wonder if the increasing difficulty of getting PR/SC makes it more alluring, kind of like schools that have a lower acceptance rates - everyone thinks it must be the best since it is so oversubscribed.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 11:03 am
by truthhurts1
Wd40 wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:36 am
Rents are going up like crazy. Some of my colleague's recent rental renewals are at 4k for simple 1bedroom
condo and 3 bedroom HDB! If you have like 2 kids in intl school and pay like 2k each and 4k rent, how can anybody survive here with a salary of 10k?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... r-pressure
In my 13 years here, this is the 1st time, I am wondering if it even makes sense to continue staying here.
It depends bro.. for some people like me going back to India is not an option after 22 years and being 40+ its gonna be difficult to move to a new country.. so here I am stuck here for almost 10 years and still no stability, still cant have enough Money to get married nor start a family or even buy a decent house.
People who have options need to move.
ON the rental part my owner increased the rental of my shoe box condo by 30% from 2300 to 3000 and this will further make it difficult to save anything.
I would definitely leave and move back if I had just close to 300,000USD in the bank and no debts, liabilities!!
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 11:54 am
by Wd40
malcontent wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 9:52 am
Wd40 wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 12:36 am
Rents are going up like crazy. Some of my colleague's recent rental renewals are at 4k for simple 1bedroom
condo and 3 bedroom HDB! If you have like 2 kids in intl school and pay like 2k each and 4k rent, how can anybody survive here with a salary of 10k?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... r-pressure
In my 13 years here, this is the 1st time, I am wondering if it even makes sense to continue staying here.
It reminds me of a story I read many years ago about Yahoo mail. Yahoo wasn’t making money from mail and one commentator said the company simply could not shed users of its popular mail service - it was wondering what it had to do to reduce numbers… even if it kicked people in the nuts, they would not leave!
Sometimes I wonder if the increasing difficulty of getting PR/SC makes it more alluring, kind of like schools that have a lower acceptance rates - everyone thinks it must be the best since it is so oversubscribed.
People who are already here might continue to stay due to inertia. But I wonder how do you attract new talent? Companies will have to increase salaries and salary rise expectations go up across the board and cause run away inflation and sooner or later, this inflation which currently hurts only foreigners will hurt locals too. So shouldnt the authorities do something to clamp down this inflation?
In the US mortgage rates are 6% now. This is how they are taming their housing and rent bubble. But Singapore it seems, this bubble is not even a concern because most locals are benefitting from it. But is it sustainable? A bit like killing the goose which lays goldens eggs foolishly thinking that you can have all the eggs at once.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:22 pm
by smoulder
As I understand it, the reason that landlords are increasing rents is because they are shelling out more to the banks. Mortgage rates have been climbing steadily over the past year. I can tell you this as a home owner myself - I am not renting out of course; we stay in our own house and our mortgage increased and will increase again when the current lock in ends in February next year.
There is no
property bubble here - property is still a low yield "investment". The bubble is effectively tamed by things like buyer stamp duty and additional buyer stamp duty.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:32 pm
by Wd40
smoulder wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:22 pm
As I understand it, the reason that landlords are increasing rents is because they are shelling out more to the banks. Mortgage rates have been climbing steadily over the past year. I can tell you this as a home owner myself - I am not renting out of course; we stay in our own house and our mortgage increased and will increase again when the current lock in ends in February next year.
There is no
property bubble here - property is still a low yield "investment". The bubble is effectively tamed by things like buyer stamp duty and additional buyer stamp duty.
The stamp duty is heavy for foreigners. Locals will find loops holes and buy 2nd property in wife's name or kids name or just go abroad or go and stay in parents place. You effectively have this arbitrage, buy property and rent out to foreigners because they have no choice. There is clear evidence of greed here when rents are jumping 50-100% and mortgage payments haven't jumped anywhere that much.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:47 pm
by smoulder
You pay more stamp duty on the second
property which from what I can see is 17 percent unless I'm missing something. If you aren't buying a second property, how do you rent out either?
Secondly, I hear you about an element of greed at the moment. But it's a bit far fetched to call this a property bubble yet. Again, I say this, not only as a home owner, but also as someone who invests in the stock market. Property prices rarely increase at the same clip as stocks and that makes it a terrible investment.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:58 pm
by malcontent
Wd40 wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:32 pm
smoulder wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 1:22 pm
As I understand it, the reason that landlords are increasing rents is because they are shelling out more to the banks. Mortgage rates have been climbing steadily over the past year. I can tell you this as a home owner myself - I am not renting out of course; we stay in our own house and our mortgage increased and will increase again when the current lock in ends in February next year.
There is no
property bubble here - property is still a low yield "investment". The bubble is effectively tamed by things like buyer stamp duty and additional buyer stamp duty.
The stamp duty is heavy for foreigners. Locals will find loops holes and buy 2nd property in wife's name or kids name or just go abroad or go and stay in parents place. You effectively have this arbitrage, buy property and rent out to foreigners because they have no choice. There is clear evidence of greed here when rents are jumping 50-100% and mortgage payments haven't jumped anywhere that much.
Don’t forget the recent hike in property tax on homes that are not owner occupied… that also contributed to the higher rents we see today. It’s not as if landlords are willing to absorb such costs; they pass right through in rent.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 2:18 pm
by malcontent
Looking at the data, from the low 5 years ago until now, rents across the island have only gone up 47% on average.
https://www.srx.com.sg/price-index
Landlords who are asking for double are just hoping to get lucky. It’s part of the culture here, people always hope to gain an unfair advantage in any situation. They will play the game, bold-faced. I’ve encountered it many times.
The best you can do is show them the data — pour some cold water on their wet dream. Let them know you are not a fool and won’t be taken advantage of. If they have half a brain, they will relent. If not, there’s no helping them… let them fish for another sucker and learn the hard way. Back when I rented, I can’t tell you how many times I just walked away, shaking my head in disbelief at these clowns.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 2:36 pm
by smoulder
malcontent wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 2:18 pm
Looking at the data, from the low 5 years ago until now, rents across the island have only gone up 47% on average.
https://www.srx.com.sg/price-index
Landlords who are asking for double are just hoping to get lucky. It’s part of the culture here, people always hope to gain an unfair advantage in any situation. They will play the game, bold-faced. I’ve encountered it many times.
The best you can do is show them the data — pour some cold water on their wet dream. Let them know you are not a fool and won’t be taken advantage of. If they have half a brain, they will relent. If not, there’s no helping them… let them fish for another sucker and learn the hard way. Back when I rented, I can’t tell you how many times I just walked away, shaking my head in disbelief at these clowns.
Agreed. Market data is your best friend as a renter. We've used the same websites to negotiate.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 3:21 pm
by midlet2013
Different people have different interpretation of the same situation , depending on home ownership n immigration status.
It’s very interesting to see such objective reasoning.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 6:08 pm
by Wd40
malcontent wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 2:18 pm
Looking at the data, from the low 5 years ago until now, rents across the island have only gone up 47% on average.
https://www.srx.com.sg/price-index
Landlords who are asking for double are just hoping to get lucky. It’s part of the culture here, people always hope to gain an unfair advantage in any situation. They will play the game, bold-faced. I’ve encountered it many times.
The best you can do is show them the data — pour some cold water on their wet dream. Let them know you are not a fool and won’t be taken advantage of. If they have half a brain, they will relent. If not, there’s no helping them… let them fish for another sucker and learn the hard way. Back when I rented, I can’t tell you how many times I just walked away, shaking my head in disbelief at these clowns.
It takes time for the averages to show up the recent increase in rents. I also look in the HDB average rental stats and they dont show the recent rise in rents because some people just stay in the same place for so long and are lucky that their owners are not increasing their rents. The best place is to see ..
The biggest problem is there is still a massive shortage of houses. If there is 1 house for viewing there are like 20 people wanting to view. So the owner can literally wait for the most desperate person to offer the highest bid and then that becomes the standard. It is really crazy out there.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 12:51 am
by the observer
Isn’t this what free market economics is all about.
Works both ways. For years, demand was less hence rent has been cheap.
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 3:52 am
by jwoods1864
Cheap?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?
Posted: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:38 am
by x9200
smoulder wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 2:36 pm
malcontent wrote: ↑Sat, 15 Oct 2022 2:18 pm
Looking at the data, from the low 5 years ago until now, rents across the island have only gone up 47% on average.
https://www.srx.com.sg/price-index
Landlords who are asking for double are just hoping to get lucky. It’s part of the culture here, people always hope to gain an unfair advantage in any situation. They will play the game, bold-faced. I’ve encountered it many times.
The best you can do is show them the data — pour some cold water on their wet dream. Let them know you are not a fool and won’t be taken advantage of. If they have half a brain, they will relent. If not, there’s no helping them… let them fish for another sucker and learn the hard way. Back when I rented, I can’t tell you how many times I just walked away, shaking my head in disbelief at these clowns.
Agreed. Market data is your best friend as a renter. We've used the same websites to negotiate.
Let me quote one of my LLs after I told him that the price he asked was higher than the market average: "I know it's more (than the average) but I still think it is fair".
Yes, you can walk away, but if this is about extending your current rent, one have to factor also moving costs including huge inconvenience. This makes you vulnerable and surely there are many vultures around happy to abuse such situations.
The bottom line is, you can not really use any logic based arguments, because their logic is based on greed, kiasu logic. As you will incur some high costs moving out, their logic is they offer you savings even with inflated rent.