Singapore Expats

Posted: **Fri, 02 Mar 2012 11:37 pm**

Anyone has any experience in using foreign currency account with ATM card linked to the account? Despite the choice being limited in SG, there are 3 banks (perhaps more?) that offer such possibility:

HSBC:
Initial deposit: US$5,000 or equivalent
Minimum average balance: US$800 (to keep it free) or US$10 (fail below)
Overseas ATM withdrawal fees: S$3.50 (HSBC); S$8 (other ATMs)
Inward telegraphic transfer: S$10
Outward telegraphic transfer: 0.125% (min. S$30, max. S$200) + 0.125% if in the same currency (min. S$50, max. S$500) + S$35 cable fees (+ overseas bank fees if any, in my experience with SCB it's â‚¬20).
Foreign currency cash deposit / withdrawal: 1.5% deposit/withdrawal (min. S$50, max S$300)

Reference.

Citibank:
Initial deposit: US$5,000 or equivalent
Minimum average balance: S$2000 (to keep it free) or S$10 (fail below)
Overseas ATM withdrawal fees: free in both Citibank ATMs and other banks ATMs as long as the bank that owns ATM doesn't levy any fees.
ATM daily withdrawal limit: S$3000 or equivalent.
Inward telegraphic transfer: free
Outward telegraphic transfer: S$30 for payments processed through internet banking (+ overseas bank fees if any, in my experience with SCB it's â‚¬20).
Foreign currency cash deposit / withdrawal: 0.5% deposit (min S$10); withdrawal 1.5% (min S$10)

Reference and charges.

ANZ:
Initial deposit: US$5,000 or equivalent
Minimum average balance: US$5,000 (to keep it free) or US$10 (fail below)
Overseas ATM withdrawal fees: S$12
Inward telegraphic transfer: S$10
Outward telegraphic transfer: 0.125% (min. S$30, max. S$500) + 0.125% if in the same currency (min. S$30, max. S$500) + S$30 cable fees (+ overseas bank fees if any, in my experience with SCB it's â‚¬20).
Foreign currency cash deposit / withdrawal: 2% deposit/withdrawal (min. â‚¬20 for EUR account) or 1% and min US$20 for USD accounts.

Reference and charges.

According to above HSBC and Citibank look best in terms of requirements and ATM withdrawal charges. Citibank looks too good to be true, especially if they really don't charge anything for other ATMs withdrawal?

Please share your thoughts / experiences in terms of usage, unexpected (hidden) fees etc.

Updated: Citibank is a clear winner here with free ATM withdrawals worldwide, no inward remittance fees and lowest outward telegraphic transfers.

Sending EUR 1000 to Europe using above mentioned banks would cost us accordingly:
Citibank (S$30); HSBC (S$115); ANZ (S$90).
On top of that overseas bank charges should be approximately EUR 20 (S$33).

Posted: **Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:29 am**

I use Citibank, it is indeed free if you use a Citibank ATM marked with the words international. Many places will have citibank atm's, but only accept local cards. Citibank does charge a fee though if you use another bank's ATM, and the other bank may possibly charge you a fee as well. The hidden fee, is exchange rates that are never favorable to you. I'd say its always within 3% of the current market exchange rate though.

Posted: **Sun, 04 Mar 2012 11:24 am**

I use Citibank also, primarily for their free transfers to other international Citibank accounts. When I've transferred to the US, it has been within 1% of the exchange rate. No other fee. When I withdrew money in Vietnam at a Citibank ATM, I believe it was also very very close.

Posted: **Sun, 04 Mar 2012 12:52 pm**

Anthony249 wrote:I use Citibank, it is indeed free if you use a Citibank ATM marked with the words international. Many places will have citibank atm's, but only accept local cards. Citibank does charge a fee though if you use another bank's ATM, and the other bank may possibly charge you a fee as well. The hidden fee, is exchange rates that are never favorable to you. I'd say its always within 3% of the current market exchange rate though.

Do you know what fees are charged by Citibank when using other than Citibank ATM overseas? Citibank helpline says there are no fees charged by Citibank at all but there might be other bank ATM fees. But to be honest I have seen other bank ATM charges maybe once or twice in my life and that was in Mexico.

Question is if have EUR account at Citibank here, go to Europe and withdraw EUR (hence no conversion) in non Citibank ATM, considering there are no other bank ATM fees, will I be charged something for this withdrawal or not?

Also there is really no minimum average balance that have to be kept and no running or fail below fees?

Posted: **Sun, 04 Mar 2012 1:42 pm**

stiwi wrote:
Anthony249 wrote:I use Citibank, it is indeed free if you use a Citibank ATM marked with the words international. Many places will have citibank atm's, but only accept local cards. Citibank does charge a fee though if you use another bank's ATM, and the other bank may possibly charge you a fee as well. The hidden fee, is exchange rates that are never favorable to you. I'd say its always within 3% of the current market exchange rate though.
Do you know what fees are charged by Citibank when using other than Citibank ATM overseas? Citibank helpline says there are no fees charged by Citibank at all but there might be other bank ATM fees. But to be honest I have seen other bank ATM charges maybe once or twice in my life and that was in Mexico.

Question is if have EUR account at Citibank here, go to Europe and withdraw EUR (hence no conversion) in non Citibank ATM, considering there are no other bank ATM fees, will I be charged something for this withdrawal or not?

Also there is really no minimum average balance that have to be kept and no running or fail below fees?

When Citibank says that about fees, they mean if you use say an HSBC ATM with Citibank card, HSBC might charge you a fee. Citibank won't. If you use Citibank card in Citibank ATM, no fee. This is extremely common in the US, where you often get double-dipped with fees on an ATM transaction. US$2-3 from each bank unless you go to the ATM that belongs to the bank that issued the card. It's quite the racket. Some banks have offered promotions though where they don't charge their fee at any ATM, and will then even refund upto X transaction fees every month from other banks against your account. HSBC US did this while I was there.

In your example, you'll only be potentially charged if the other bank has a fee on cards not issued by them.

As for no fees, yes, Citibank has a pretty good deal here. Way better than Citibank in the US, or in Europe. I'm told they have very little market penetration currently, thus they run excellent promotions (such as completely free international transfers, etc) in order to get more customers. Citibank in the US OTOH rapes me every time i turn around.

Posted: **Tue, 13 Mar 2012 7:54 pm**

I have now updated the main post with missing infos. I just confirmed with 2 different sources from Citibank that they indeed don't charge anything for overseas ATM withdrawal as long as bank that owns ATM doesn't levy any charges on withdrawal.

Citibank is a clear winner here with lowest fees for sending international bank transfers, not charging anything for receiving such. Some branches are able to issue ATM card on the spot together with token device, so there is no need to wait for the postage.

Obviously outward remittance fees proposed by Citibank can be beaten by having World Partner status in SCB (S$20k or equivalent). In such case all remittance fees are waived (except the overseas bank charges) as well as foreign currency cash deposits / withdrawals. However, SCB doesn't offer ATM card, so it serves its purpose well for exchanging currency at the Arcade and sending money overseas but that's it.

Posted: **Tue, 13 Mar 2012 9:41 pm**

Again, don't forget if you're sending outbound to another Citibank acct, it is completely free. Pretty sure Citibank is in most Euro markets. I maintain a Citibank acct in the US just for this.

Also, they don't have a token device in Singapore. They use SMS to your mobile. (If there is a token device, I wasn't given the option)

Posted: **Tue, 13 Mar 2012 10:20 pm**

zzm9980 wrote: Pretty sure Citibank is in most Euro markets.

They quit Germany a few years ago...

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 6:50 am**

JR8 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote: Pretty sure Citibank is in most Euro markets.

They quit Germany a few years ago...

So with the "Eurozone" and all of that hoopla... If you transfer the money into any account in the EU, do you generally get to transfer money around without the hassle of international fees, or is each country still its own market?

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 5:10 pm**

zzm9980 wrote: So with the "Eurozone" and all of that hoopla... If you transfer the money into any account in the EU, do you generally get to transfer money around without the hassle of international fees, or is each country still its own market?

Good question I'm not sure, and we've never made any euro x-border purchases or transfers that I am aware of.

What I do recall is that shortly after the euro came about there was a bit of a stink as banks were still charging higher fees for cross-border euro transfers than domestic ones. The stink was because it had been intended that this kind of dual charging would cease. I don't know whether it finally got ironed out.

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 6:57 pm**

I have opened such Citibank Global currency foreign account today and can confirm that ATM card was issued on the spot together with token device.

What bothers me now is that in Europe most ATMs use 4 PIN code, but Citibank requires minimum 6 digits PIN number here in Singapore and it is not possible to change it for a shorter one. They say that 6 digits is the minimum used by all banks in SG but that's obviously not true, because my SCB atm card has 5 digits.

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 7:26 pm**

stiwi wrote: What bothers me now is that in Europe most ATMs use 4 PIN code, but Citibank requires minimum 6 digits PIN number here in Singapore and it is not possible to change it for a shorter one. They say that 6 digits is the minimum used by all banks in SG but that's obviously not true, because my SCB atm card has 5 digits.

You are right that SCB use a 5 digit PIN. But what are you bothered about? Europe might use 4 digit PINs but it does not mean you can't use longer ones. The logical extension of your concern would be that no SGn bankcard would work in Europe (which of course is not the case)... ?

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 7:49 pm**

JR8 wrote: You are right that SCB use a 5 digit PIN. But what are you bothered about? Europe might use 4 digit PINs but it does not mean you can't use longer ones. The logical extension of your concern would be that no SGn bankcard would work in Europe (which of course is not the case)... ?

Yes, this might not or might be the case depending on european ATM:
"If you want to use your ATM card overseas, keep in mind that many ATM's abroad, particularly in Europe, do not accept PIN's longer than four digits. If your PIN is longer, contact your bank to have it changed."
Source.

For instance with my 4 digit PIN ATM card issued in Europe I had no success in withdrawing money at some ATMs here in SG (e.g. Citibank, OCBC, UOB, while DBS always worked). I don't know if this issue actually due to the PIN number but I have used this card successfully in many, sometimes remote locations worldwide.

So what bothers me is that the 6digit PIN number ATM card issued by Citibank to foreign currency account, might not work at some (most?) ATMs in Europe.

Also please read here, where SG user express the same concerns.

Btw, I updated the main post for Citibank daily ATM withdrawal limits.

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 8:37 pm**

stiwi wrote: Yes, this might not or might be the case depending on european ATM:
"If you want to use your ATM card overseas, keep in mind that many ATM's abroad, particularly in Europe, do not accept PIN's longer than four digits. If your PIN is longer, contact your bank to have it changed."
Source.

For instance with my 4 digit PIN ATM card issued in Europe I had no success in withdrawing money at some ATMs here in SG (e.g. Citibank, OCBC, UOB, while DBS always worked). I don't know if this issue actually due to the PIN number but I have used this card successfully in many, sometimes remote locations worldwide.

Yes I found the same, but I think it is a thing with SG ATMs to be honest, and hence a red herring for your question. I must have acquainted myself with just about every ATM machine at Change airport by now.

Hey I even had routine difficulty using my SCB debit card in some Citibank ATMs in SG despite them supposedly being in the same network.

So what bothers me is that the 6digit PIN number ATM card issued by Citibank to foreign currency account, might not work at some (most?) ATMs in Europe.

Also please read here, where SG user express the same concerns.

That discussion was a 'flock of seagulls', no one seems to know what is going on... and no conclusion is reached.

I'm going on my experience of me, my wife and various relatives and guests and friends from SG all having stayed with us and none complaining about ATM PIN problems. Maybe you should just believe what Citi are telling you?

Btw, I updated the main post for Citibank daily ATM withdrawal limits.

Posted: **Wed, 14 Mar 2012 8:49 pm**

Citibank doesn't guarantee anything except that it will work at their ATMs worldwide. I am reading that Visa/Plus ATM network accepts four to six digit PIN, so hopefully there should not be any issues. I will test it in few days time.

Singapore Expats

Best foreign currency account with ATM card?

Best foreign currency account with ATM card?